The Heart Behind Born Losers Records Is What Keeps Them On The Line
By Emily Herbein
“When Mike and I started Born Losers, the premise was to not overextend ourselves and to always answer every email or text or call and really give artists a feeling of appreciation.”
If you take away anything from reading about Mike Cammarata and Chris Radwanski’s purpose behind their label, that should be it. Started in 2016, Born Losers Records has been home to a handful of Philly and beyond’s most fully-realized creative artists, with instantly graspable aesthetics like Sixteen Jackies, They/Live, and Total Rubbish. Born out of the exhaustion that comes from working with labels that tend to overlook the value of hands-on communication, Chris and Mike decided that, going forward, they’d be a hub for artists who desire both a working relationship and a friendship with the people pushing their work out into the world. Their mission instantly attracted me to want to work with them in a press-sense, because whatever they release is gold. It’s completely obvious when a label loves what they do, fully believes in the music they sign, and respects the people they work with. Because Chris and Mike have worked through the ups and downs of the industry, they framed Born Losers as a space built on inclusivity and dedication. This entire operation is just the two of them working from home - working through a pandemic that has put their industry on pause - and they manage to have signed twelve artists since their inception. I’ve made it a point lately to only work with or interview people - artists or otherwise - who propel the same want to help others and the refusal to do anything just for the sake of being cool that I’m trying to work toward. I want to work with people who are authentic in their beliefs and their image and share stories worth sharing, and Born Losers is all of those things, times ten.
Chris and Mike sat on a Zoom call with me back in October when they were in the middle of promoting a Total Rubbish album, a Jaguar Sun live session, and a Dante Elephante single. How they have the time - I don’t know. But I’m glad they continue to make the time because this is a label I believe in.
How did you both get started in music?
Mike: I joined a band when I was 16 called Drink Up Buttercup that enjoyed quite a bit of success in the Doylestown/Bucks County area, and then Chris used to be in a band at the same time and we’d occasionally play together. Once that band started picking up, we were playing shows in New York and Philly and Chris took it on as a managing project. He was 21, I was 16 at the time.
Chris: I’d just graduated from Drexel’s Music Industry program, so I started managing while I was working a minimum wage security job. That was also during the previous recession, so everyone who’d just graduated college was like shit out of luck for jobs, so I was working an overnight gig. I had a desk and I’d manage the band nonstop from there.
Mike: I actually think he was so in the zone once that someone actually came in while he was working and stole a shit ton of petroleum? A whole barrel?
Chris: They stole a bunch of cooking oil - this is really embarrassing - and I’d actually signed them in. Like, “yeah it’s right over there, go ahead.” Turns out, they were not the people who were supposed to pick up the oil. But luckily, managing took off at the same time and I’d picked up Bill Moriarty, who I’d met through Drink Up Buttercup. He was a producer in Philly who worked with Dr. Dog, Man Man. He was ‘The Guy,’ and I started managing him and Drink Up at the same time. So it worked out that while I was being fired from security, I could just move full time into music.
Mike: At that point, Drink Up was doing national tours and we were on the road 150 + days a year, so Chris would come along and tour manage as well. It turned out that we had a lot in common.
Emily: I was looking through your Instagrams and I realized your current band, Suburban Living, toured with Circa Survive within the last year or so, and if those dates had been local we would have likely run into each other so much sooner.
Mike: Actually the day before that tour, I got into a head-on car accident and I woke up in the hospital something like six hours later with no idea where I was or what had happened. I totally mentally blacked out, and I remember coming to and Dr. Phil was on the TV and I asked if I could still go on tour. One doctor said, “Sure!” and another said, “...absolutely not.”
What prompted you to want to start your own label?
Chris: To jump through some hoops and condense what is a super long story, there was the formation of another band called White Birds, which is when I actually started playing music again, and while we were working on a record and a live show, there was just too much turmoil to ever actually put out anything substantial. So then we moved on to form another band - essentially one person just kept getting deleted from the lineup and there would be a name change - and this one was called Night Panther. That one had some decent success until it didn’t. That was a tumultuous end. Then it was just Mike and me, and I was ready to stop playing music. The breakups just kept getting worse and worse and it didn’t feel worth it anymore. So I sat on this for not even a week and Mike hit me up and said, “Hey, this dude from Virginia is coming up and he’s looking for a band. Wanna join?”
Emily: Can’t catch a break.
Chris: So that was Suburban Living. I don’t’ know where the idea sparked from but eventually, we kicked the thought of a label around for a little bit during that time, and it happened pretty quickly. We came up with the name and then Grey Haas came up with the logo. Once the design came in, we were like, “this is actually really cool and we should follow through with this.”
Mike: We wanted to kick off the launch with Rob Grote’s [of The Districts] side project, Straw Hats. I was talking to him about that but we’d just missed him. He’d already committed the record to another label, but that would have been a really great start. I was also playing with another band at the time called Residuels, and we were just about to go on tour, and we printed a quick 7-inch to see how we would do with pushing something like that. The company delivered us all the records at the wrong speed so that didn’t work. But one day I saw Louie Louie play and my mind just exploded. I talked to the keyboard player and pitched them the *idea* of the label and said “please please be on it,” and they agreed. So that was our first real release.
Chris: That went really well. We licensed three or four of the songs from the record on different television shows, and basically, when we went in on it, we agreed to do all of this on our own. We weren’t going to borrow money, we were going to just put into it what we have, and if we can make it work, we’ll put out another record. And another, and another. So we’ve only ever put in that original seed money to start that Louie Louie record, and it just did well. We sold a lot of LPs, did well on Spotify, landed on playlists. The licensing worked out, they did a Beach House tour. That was when we realized we could make this work. It’s been - I won’t say a rollercoaster because things have been pretty steadily going up - it’s been really good, and each step is just a learning experience and a new connection. Basically, the other catalyst of starting a label - without calling anyone out - is having been signed to a label from a previous project that just didn’t give us any support. We’d try to reach out and we’d see on Facebook that they were out partying on like a boat or something. We’d be like, “What’s happening with the record???” and get no response or they’d just say they’re busy. And they weren’t. So when Mike and I started Born Losers, the premise was to not overextend ourselves and to always answer every email or text or call and really give artists a feeling of appreciation. They’re trusting us with the music, we want to deliver for them. That's been our biggest goal. We never want anyone to leave us saying, “that label didn’t do what they said they were going to do.” And if it doesn’t blow up, it’s not due to a lack of effort.
Mike: We have a group chat with every band that we work with, we want to be that accessible. If you want to text us at midnight on a Tuesday, we’ll do our best to take care of whatever it is. Especially for me, I was starting out in music and I had a million questions and I always wanted to know about the progress of something, and not getting that back was such a deterrent. I never want to make anyone else feel like that.
Chris: We’d be talked down to. Like, “Oh, you didn’t know this or this?” A lot of people who go into something like this just don’t know what the next step is. Just being like, “here’s the answer to your question,” is so easy.
Emily: It’s really admirable what you’re doing. It’s true that, in some cases, you do have to work under difficult people in order to learn what you can and cannot do when you want to launch your own project. I’ve happened to talk recently to a lot of people within different facets of the industry, either front end or back end, with this exact same attitude. Front end example, I work with Will Yip and scout music and content for his label, and he’s the most hands-on with his artists, and you feel that in the end result of a record. Back end example, I work with Jamie Coletta as a publicist, and she’s worked with some really difficult people, which prompted her to launch No Earbuds and essentially do the same thing you’re doing and become an approachable outlet for artists to feel like they’re getting a uniquely hands-on experience with someone who fully backs their work. Being willing to teach and to help without the fear of having to guard your work ethic is a really indispensable tool in order to make this industry a more transparent place, I think. Being respectful and respectable among the people who are trusting you with their art is what sets professionals that I’ve worked with apart from others for sure.
Mike: Not everybody knows everything. We don’t know everything, and there’s a lot to learn. It’s a scary and rewarding feeling. We won’t ever shy away from working with a band that’s starting from scratch. A lot of our bands come to us with their first-ever release.
Emily: That’s admirable, too. Those are projects that a lot of people won’t want to touch because the band doesn’t have a following. But I do believe that you will organically find the people you’re supposed to be surrounded by and that’s the best kind of support.
Chris: Those can be scary projects.
Mike: If they have a question, you’ve gotta just be there to answer. Then the more the band knows about their process, the better it is for everyone involved.
Emily: Every job I’ve taken on, whether it’s PR or writing or booking, everything is a learn as you go process. Then - slowly but surely - you become someone that people will seek out. But it’s all DIY, always. Nobody knows everything and I’ll certainly never claim to.
Chris: I listen to this one podcast called “The Future of What,” and it’s run by Portia Sabin, president of the Music Business Association. Every week is a different topic, like a label spotlight or an artist management spotlight, and I love the different label conversations. Everyone’s like, “My buddy and I got drunk one night and we decided to start a label and we fucked everything up for 3 years but now we’re doing great.”
Emily: I love talking to people on the artist management side. I’ve been talking to bands for like five years, but recently I’ve seen that some of my more favorable connections have come from the people working on their team, and that’s such an interesting dynamic. I’ve made an effort to talk to more people who view their artists as more than artists. You said every band you sign, you have a relationship with and I think that’s incredible.
Mike: I heard the absolute cutest thing that made me so happy the other day. I was hanging out with someone we’re doing a release with, and she told me that other artists on our label are always reaching out and congratulating each other when releases come out. It makes me so happy that there’s a community.
Emily: I think that’s how it should be. Just from looking at your Instagram, you guys are so on your game with reposting and sharing everything. That’s another level of support. It’s a seemingly insignificant way to make your artists feel seen and valued, but it’s effective. I’ve seen those bands shout each other out, too.
Mike: If people are proud to be associated with Born Losers then that’s a job well done for us.
Emily: Exactly. That’s such a great goal to have, because then it’s not self-serving, which I think feels even better. People in the music industry can be really selfish and I just don’t see the value in that.
Mike: We want to grow with our artists. We aren’t the biggest label by any means, but we have bands that are starting to expand their reach and grow their own organic followings, so for them to want to come back and work with us again is huge. A lot of people don’t want to work with bigger labels because you become less of a priority, and we want to make sure everyone feels prioritized.
What about an artist stands out to you when deciding whether or not you want to work with them?
Mike: There’s a feeling.
Chris: They have to have a vision. A band can have a great record, but then you get on the phone with them and there’s just no spark in the conversation. They pitch the music and that’s it. They/Live is a project that’s very specific to me, and everything from the artwork to the photos to the way she presents everything with the music is so well-realized. That’s an artist to me. That’s something we look for. Sixteen Jackies, too. They have an entire aesthetic, from the way they perform to the artwork to the sound.
Emily: I love that about them. Looking through your artist roster on your site, that’s completely evident. You have such a wonderfully diverse listing and everyone’s vision - like you said - is so easy to grab onto. No vague rock bands.
Mike: Yeah, we take pride in the fact that we don’t pigeonhole our artists or our label. Like, we aren’t a “garage rock” or a “goth synth-wave” label. We have everything in there, but as long as you are able to have a solid vision, that’s going to make good music.
Chris: There’s also the initial phone call or initial meeting. That can immediately turn the whole thing off or on. I remember we were so stoked on this one record. I was so blown away by this pop math-rock record, I just thought the person was a genius. So after we set up a call, I got off the phone and called Mike, and I was like, “I’ve never felt more uncomfortable in my life. I don’t know how that went so wrong.”
Emily: I hate that. I’ve had similar interview experiences. One of the most important pieces of advice that I’ve carried with me through every project I’ve picked up is that you have to be a good hang. It sounds so lame to say, but it’s true. Your writing can be great, your music can be great, on paper you can be the best sell ever. But if you can’t connect or make each other laugh or talk about things outside of work, it feels like a really pointless relationship to me. I think I’m a good interviewer, and I’ve come off conversations that I’ve felt like I couldn't publish because they were just so awkward, and I don’t even know what I did wrong, like Chris said.
Mike: Chris lives out in the suburbs, but when I lived full time in Philly before the pandemic, I’d try to hang out with the people on our label as well. I always met Joey [of Sixteen Jackies] at Tuesday night karaoke at Ortlieb’s, even though I hate karaoke, and we’d just shut it down until like 2:30 in the morning. I also always try to keep a strict rule that when we hang out, I want to keep the business talk to a minimum, because I don’t want to have a relationship based solely on work.
Emily: Yeah, finding that balance is super important and sometimes difficult. Drawing a line can be something you have to learn the hard way. But being friends with the people you work with can be invaluable and make the experience one hundred times more enjoyable. It also, I’m sure, makes your artists feel valued. I try to keep that up with the people that I tend to feature on Philly Live a lot because I want them to feel like I’m an outlet they can always depend on for press as well as just genuine friendship and support.
Mike: Nearly all of our friends are in bands, and it can be hard because we can’t say yes to every project even though we want to. The last thing I ever want to do is disappoint someone, especially a friend.
When you’re working with artists, how do you balance your role with them? How much creative control do you have? What’s a typical working relationship look like?
Mike: Because we believe that we all live or die together through a release, we like to be as hands-on as possible. Not so much with the creative side, but as far as they allow us to, we’ll pseudo-manage them through the release. We’re not just a bank. When the world was open, a big part of our role was submitting them for tours and shows and agencies. We basically would take the role of a manager and let them do the creative work.
Chris: We’ve had some bands with an actual manager. Korine came with a manager. Sixteen Jackies have Marley McNamara. It kind of just all goes back to us signing the people who have the vision and we don’t want to fuck with that. You have the vision and we fell in love with it so keep doing it.
Emily: That’s the great thing about small labels. I’ve heard stories about bands who work with bigger labels who are like, “Your sound is great, let’s do one record, but for the next one, you have to fit our sound.” I think that’s so unfair.
Mike: Who listens to just one type of music? Why would you want your label to be that way?
Emily: That’s totally what drew me to you guys. After I met Sixteen Jackies and looked through your artists and saw how cool and diverse they are. A lot of labels have a definite overt vibe, and I liked that I couldn’t really pin yours down. They’re just fully realized artists that you believe in.
Chris: Thank you!
Mike: One of my favorite emails to get is when someone buys a record and then they say that they bought a ton of our other artists’ records because of that one find. That’s so rewarding.
Do you have any in-house PR teams, or do people approach you for coverage, like I do?
Chris: We do everything ourselves. We’ve hired out twice for an independent PR company, and they were probably three years apart from when we did the second one. For what we do, and I guess tenacity, we find we can do as good of a job with our connections and with what we’ve learned that we don’t really need to hire out for that. This year is getting pretty crazy. It’s been great, COVID aside.
Emily: Don’t worry, we’re getting to that.
Chris: In the beginning, we weren’t sure what to do, if we should keep putting out records or pump the brakes. But we both ended up having so much time, so we just doubled down on our work effort, and leading into 2021 assuming things don’t completely fall apart, we’re set up to have our biggest year ever. We’re putting out more releases while still keeping it manageable because it’s just the two of us, but it’s pretty intense splitting the time doing PR, trying to hit radio and licensing, trying to manage all of that while trying to package merch and records. We just got two shipments today of like 400 packages of pre-orders to ship out.
Mike: I’m lucky because of Corona restrictions that I can’t go and help him.
Emily: Yeah - have you seen each other at all?
Mike: Yeah, so I’m currently staying with my wife’s parents, but Chris and I just recently decided that we’re going to start working together just with masks on. It’s always better to work together in person.
Emily: Were you always doing label work out of your homes, or did you have a space together?
Mike: I wish. One day I hope to, but we were just at home.
Emily: Do you think you always want to keep Born Losers to just the two of you, or do you want to expand eventually?
Chris: I’m always looking at the potential of a third person, but - and I don’t know how interesting this is - but business-wise, we put in our seed money and it’s been the two of us. It costs anywhere between $5,000 and $10,000 to put out a record, so that’s our budget, and it took us a few years to be able to get to the point where we could do multiple records at a time. In my mind, the only way to make this a viable business is to put out enough releases at a time with a back catalog that’s all generating money. But, because we never went into debt, we had to build that slowly. So as of now, everything we do just goes into the business to grow the business. I do think about the time and how it would be awesome to have a third person, but I’d also like to pay myself soon. So bringing in a third person makes it a little tricky because then that pushes payment further down the line. That’s a 2021 question.
Mike: I think for sure Chris and I balance out our strengths and weaknesses really perfectly, which is why this works so well. He’s so good with numbers, so if this was just me, it would have tanked in three weeks. If we ever bring someone on, it’s just going to be a matter of finding someone with strengths that we don’t have.
Chris: I think it would probably be a really techy person. Someone who could really handle social media and also edit trailers and handle back end website nonsense, because we can’t. I’m just spitballing.
Mike: I want someone who’s very social, like brand ambassador material. Making connections, that kind of thing would be awesome.
Emily: That’s my favorite thing to do.
Mike: It’s crazy to think that all of that kind of happens without you realizing. When you start a project like this from nothing, you have to take on the role of a graphic designer, social media expert, etcetera etcetera.
Emily: I was running Philly Live on my own for a little bit, and I am just not a video or photo person, and I got to a point where I knew I needed someone else to come on but I had to be really careful about who I chose. Deciding to work with someone else is really difficult for me because I value this as like, my baby. I have a distinct vision and direction and I’ve worked with people who have tried to pull it away from me. But then I brought Bre on, and I clicked with her immediately.
Mike: That’s key. That’s why this works.
Did you sign any artists during COVID?
Mike: A bunch, actually. It’s been interesting because, before COVID, such a massive selling point was whether or not a band was willing to go on tour. Constantly playing shows, building the name, touring, selling records, is so important. But now we’ve signed bands that we haven’t even seen play live.
Emily: Was that risky for you to do? Were you comfortable with that?
Mike: During COVID, it hasn’t been as much of a problem because nobody can play, but we’ve been doing a lot of push toward livestreams. One of our artists, Jaguar Sun, is doing a Jam in the Van session tomorrow. But it’s taken away a huge part of the model for how we build a band’s image.
Chris: We’ve signed maybe two or three bands in the pandemic. Dante Elephante, Jaguar Sun, Total Rubbish.
I don’t know if this question ever offends you when you’re asked, but is Born Losers your full-time job?
Chris: I would love it to be. That’s what the 2021 goal is. But we’re not quite there yet. I teach guitar and I manage Secret American. I was managing Jaguar Sun and then we signed him. I recently started managing Trey from Korine for his production career. I was also booking shows before everything fell apart. I worked as the head talent buyer for Triumph Brewing in New Hope. It was going well. I was revamping their music program, but they closed and they haven’t reopened.
Aside from self-sustainability, what are your other goals?
Mike: We’re starting to get this other project off the ground. This kind of leads into eventually getting an office, but we’ve been running into bands that don’t want to give up their digital distribution rights, so we’re trying to reach out to labels and bands that have a good following and don’t want to charge their fans like $25 for shipping. So we take one artist and labels to fulfill US orders, so the more that grows, the more room we’ll need or else Chris is going to be living in a pile of boxes. When real life returns, not going back to a full-time serving job is on the books.
Chris: My gig is very scalable, so I could easily pull back from five days of teaching to four, to three, to “I don’t work here.”
Emily: I work a very basic 9-5 content writing job that I would love not to do. I’m trying really hard to get my shit together and make all of these side projects my full-time job, too. We’re all in the same boat.
Total Rubbish via Born Losers Records
What advice would you give to your younger selves or anyone who wants to be a self-starter on the artists’ side of the industry?
Mike: Patience is important. Setting goals, but not being obsessed with them. Don’t do anything because it’s trendy, just believe in what you’re doing. I’d rather sign a band I love that has no following over a band that’s huge that I don’t like.
Chris: If I could talk to my younger self…
Mike: “Don’t do it!”
Chris: “Get a different job!” No - I’d have a clearer head from 21 to 25 if I could. I think I’ve met and forgotten more people than… I can remember. It’s fun to party, but if I could go back and talk to my younger self, I’d say to pump the brakes. I think I’d be in a different spot than I am now. Not that I hate where I am now, but I think I could be further and I think it’s a mistake that a lot of people make. Enjoying the ride a little too much can be a problem.
Emily: No, the industry is exciting for sure. It’s hard not to get caught up in it.
Chris: And don’t get too excited - until… No, just don’t get too excited. Not to sound pessimistic. But a lot of opportunities are just always on the cusp and then you ride too high and they fall through. It feels like the end of the world. So trying to keep an even keel while navigating your decisions is key, because it really is a patience thing.
Emily: Keeping in mind that this job is never a sure thing is a hard pill to swallow, but if you know that you don’t want to do anything else, you have to stick it out.